Photo by Facundo Aranda on Unsplash

A version of this was first published in mous. magazine and is available for purchase here.

“It doesn’t work like that in the music industry,” she said. “If you’re a female you have to be more careful than you might be in other fields. I won’t be taken seriously.”

My friend could have been talking about any number of things, like how careful a female has to be when choosing what to wear to work, how hard she is seen to be working, what hours she keeps, how she speaks to colleagues, whether she gets upset, etc etc. The list could go on.

In this case though, she was talking about being perceived as sexual or flirty in the music industry, or more accurately, sleeping with someone else in the industry. I countered that it could get very messy if I was having sex with or being seen to come on to someone I work with in my regular office job also, so was the music industry really all that different. Then I remembered that while I don’t usually make a habit of sleeping with people I work with, I have done so a couple of times before (hello 2010 and 2015, I see you) and honestly, it didn’t affect how that person treated me at work, or anyone else for that matter, enough to have considered my reputation ‘tarnished’ at work. Yeah, it can get messy-ish when people who work together break up or the situation goes south, but so far I haven’t seen it alter or ruin anyone’s reputation as much as my friend was saying it can do in the music industry.  

That’s when I also remembered I don’t really know anything about being a female in the music industry at all really, about sexism or any other aspect. I mean, I could make my guesses about what it might be like to work in that world, but guessing isn’t really a useful or journalistically accurate way to write an article like this. So I sat down with three women killing it in the industry, all working in different roles, to see what life is like for them, and about the varying degrees of sexism they each face.

Kate Cudbertson is an Australian living in NYC and spent 2017 touring the world with the FKJ debut album tour. She has a strong love for cheese and truffles, enjoys being in nature in any capacity, and has a fascination with space / the universe. You can find out more about her or get in contact at kate@katecud.com

Tell us a bit about your job and what you do.

I'm an artist manager and tour manager. I represent artists in the industry and generally keep all the wheels of their business turning. As the artist grows, we select the right people in the different fields to build a strong, supportive team around the individual or band and their project. Depending on where they're at in their career, this generally involves working closely with booking agents for the touring and live aspects, business managers, labels, publishers, press, other managers for collaborations, and studios. I like to be very hands on with my artists and try and help them mentally and creatively as much as possible. For the tour management aspect I work on a lot of budgets, and liaise with promoters, the venue’s production team, and our own touring staff. If we have a tour bus, it’s a lot of routing, scheduling, mileage, and working with the driver.  It’s generally very fast-paced and involves a lot of problem solving.

What does a “typical” day look like for you?

Haha "typical". Good one. The only thing typical is how many times a day I walk into the breakfast bench on my way to the fridge. I've started putting my phone on the other side of the room when I sleep and not scrolling 30 times to get to the bottom of my notifications until I've meditated and said hi to my Mum on Facebook chat. I always hand write a list of what I need to do the next day before I sleep. In the morning I get that bad boy out, have a look, start with the most pressing emails, and then usually jump on a few calls. I either do this from my "home office" or a café. And drink terrible coffee – both at home and at café.

Being a woman in any field can be challenging, but I imagine in the music industry even more so. What are the challenges you’ve experienced?

It's a very male dominated industry. I've found the issues generally arise from those who have been kicking around the scene for at least a couple of decades and aren't sure how to adapt to a fast evolving industry. It's also a bit of a double whammy being female and 25-years-old. It's the small things that you can palm off as normal or acceptable; then someone takes it too far. It's most challenging when you get someone (perhaps even subconsciously) second guessing you, or bringing you down because of age and/or gender.  There’s sometimes an assumption that a 25-year-old female isn't capable of the job: is too inexperienced, too soft, too emotional ... It can be hard to stay strong all the time and not let those thoughts in. I think you do have to work harder as a female in this industry, but I try and see it as a positive. It makes me better at my job and makes me want to encourage other young females to do the same.

Have you seen any double standards around sexuality in the industry?

Yup. One guy wouldn't shake my hand and asked for me to get back to him when I had someone he could talk to "properly". I almost died with shock and ran comeback lines through my head for weeks after that. I've had the "ahh, sucking dick your way to the top are we?" comment to my face after having a meeting with a mentor. When touring and arriving at new venues, it can take a while to start getting responses from house crew. When I ask them to do something, they won't listen and take their sweet ass time. I always wonder if it would be different if I had a penis. Response rates from people on emails can be slow, but when my male co manager follow ups he’ll get a response instantly. 

I do consciously dress and look pretty casual on tour, I guess somewhat out of comfort and mobility but also so that I get taken more seriously. I feel like if I came in wearing make-up and with my hair done I would be perceived as a princess or not as hard working. In saying all that I do not want to discount the bloody amazing people in the industry, no matter what gender. For every shitty, troubled person there's a good one to make up for it. You find your people and support network in this industry and help each other succeed, whatever that may mean.

Great segue to my next question - in contrast to these, what are the things you love?

As much as I whinge and have minor/major break downs that my friends have to deal with (sorry friends), I always learn to love the challenges in the end. When you're challenged, you grow at a rapid pace and you can reflect on what you learned once you're out of the eye of the storm. I always try and remind myself of this when I'm going through something particularly challenging. Apart from that I love working with musicians to help their ideas become a reality. I'm forever gobsmacked by the talent of the ones I work with. My favorite thing in the world though, is seeing them perform. It always reminds me why I do this.

Emily Retsas is a bass player from Australia. In 2017 she played and toured with a number of bands in the US. You can find out more information about her at www.emilyretsas.com

Tell us a bit about your job and what you do.
I'm a bass player. My job is to learn other people's songs and play them well!

What does a typical day look like for you (if there is such a thing as typical!)?

I think the one constant routine for me is coffee. Other than that, most days include practice, finishing an article, having too many tabs open on my browser, sitting in traffic, a rehearsal, staring into the depths of my google calendar and trying to go to bed earlier.

Being a woman in any field can be challenging, but I imagine in the music industry even more so. What are the challenges you’ve come up against or seen? 

There's definitely a double standard. People make comments – either online or in person – about how they think you should or shouldn't be looking, doing, or be saying. I’ve seen a lot of people defend this with the fact they would also say the same things to a guy, yet I've never seen comments like that on male peers’ pages. It can get tiring as it's not my job to educate people on inequality. They should educate themselves. Being a man or woman in the industry should be the same. Treat us the same and there's no issue.

You mention double standards. Can you talk a bit about double standards around sexuality in the industry?

I think double standards exist in a multitude of places in everyday life. There is definitely a hyper-sexualization of women in the industry. Don’t age, look young and be sexy, but don’t own your sexuality. Be thankful when men compliment your image as if they are doing you a favor. Be available but don’t date anyone in your industry. There have been some great interviews recently with women like Madonna and Courtney Love talking about their experiences and the improvements over the years.  I think we owe a lot to musicians like them as well as Grace Jones, Freddie Mercury and Prince for providing alternate examples and broadening the horizon of what sexuality can look like on the music stage.

In contrast to the challenges, what are the things you love?

I love the ability to play music with a variety of different people. The surroundings are always changing and bands always feel like a family. Music has allowed me to experience some amazing things with people and build lifelong friendships and I'm always very grateful for that.

Atafeh Karimi is the founder of A.K.A records.  Originally from Seattle, Washington, she moved to New York 9 years ago at 17 to attend The New School to study sociology. Since then, she has worked with recording studios A&R'ing and developing projects. Atafeh designs hats and jewelry in her spare time and still has an enduring affection for New York City.  She loves anything vintage, tennis, good wine and ping pong. You can find her on Instagram at @atafehrosekarimi 

Tell us a bit about your job and what you do. 
I'm an Independent A&R. In quite simple terms I scout artists, work very closely with them through their creative process and from there, develop a plan and assemble a team to cut an EP and/ or LP. 

What does a typical day look like for you ("typical" haha yes I know, there is no typical)
In and out of studios
Emails
Meetings
Listening to Soundclouds
Emails
Looking at upcoming shows
Reviewing and giving mix notes
Some type of social consumption of food (a woman's gotta eat)
Going to a show… or two
Nightcap (crucial) 

Being a woman in any field can be challenging, but I imagine in the music industry even more so. What are the challenges of being a woman in the music industry?

I think being a woman in a predominately male field is a blessing and a curse. You immediately stand out because you're not “the norm.” However, if you use that to empower yourself and let your skills, capabilities, and determination speak for itself, you'll be met with opportunity. I don't want to be known as a female A&R, I want to be known as a great A&R. My gender isn't the qualification for why I'm good at what I do

Have you seen (or experienced) any double standards around sexuality in the industry?

I think women experience double standards in every industry. Again, not being 'the norm' can mean you have to speak louder in a sense, but inversely it means your voice holds a lot of weight. I intend on being heard so I use that weight to my advantage, and refuse to let it deter me from moving forward with what I’m passionate about.  We have a lot of problems in our world — politically, environmentally, racially to name a few — sexism has a clear place in that list of problems but the more women are differentiated from their male peers to achieve equality, the more fuel we give to the divide and the fire of inequality. 

Women are so strong; look at women's responses to crisis and disadvantage throughout time, most recently, The Women's March in response to Trump's Administration. I'm more invested in centering the conversation on empowerment, and changing the tone of how we address inequality: celebrating the strength of women as a response to the challenges that are associated with us being disparate from men. There are women who are crushing it in the music industry — Linda Perry, Teresea LaBarbera — these women have been in the game a long time and are dominating at what they do. I'm just trying to keep it pushing to ensure it remains that way. 

In contrast to the challenges, what are the things you love?

It’s simple — I love being able to make records.

Finally, describe being a woman in the music industry in three words?

Ambition, Opportunity, Perseverance.